RED: Military police vs officials, seeking some clarification

RED: Military police vs officials

In a blogpost for the following chapter, SIU wrote this:

"To speak a little about Ren's identity a bit, the 'Enforcement Division' is infamous even among the Zahard Family.
First, the enemy they face are all people who were 'once in the Zahard family', so even they are all Zahards, they don't feel to good about them.
It's kinda like the feelings between the military police and an official."

More clarification: Zahard Family consists of the Princesses, RED and Zahard. So SIU is talking about the Princesses here.
Also, the RED division isn't loyal to Zahard but loyalty among the individual members varies.

Does anyone know what the bolded part means? Is it referring to an issue of the RED viewing their targets hostilely because they're viewed as betrayers and traitors of the Empire?

Or is it a question of overstepping authority?

Though I do suspect both groups don't get along too well probably because of the conflict of authority(power over certain situations, political clout and so on) and the RED dealing with a former Zahard(Princess) makes things worse.

http://towerofgod.wikia.com/wiki/Ch_68:_2F_-_Last_Examination_(12)

The info will be added to these pages:

http://towerofgod.wikia.com/wiki/Royal_Enforcement_Division
http://towerofgod.wikia.com/wiki/Zahard_Empire (yeah I know it's a bit messy atm. and it's not updated with the latest bits of "info" from Luslec's profile. But give me a while 'cos it took a lot of time to write up the whole freaking thing. =P)

Edited by Yu Han Sung, 26 April 2012 - 06:03 PM.

SPECTERs and C-Sec

SPECTERs and C-Sec

What? No, I don't play videogames at all. You're going to need to clarify. If you don't feel like doing so, it's fine too.

Edit: It's okay, I decided to ask somewhere else instead.

Edited by Yu Han Sung, 26 April 2012 - 02:46 PM.

I suspect something was lost in translation. My guess is he means the relationship is similar to regular police and internal affairs. They are technically all cops but Internal Affairs' job is to keep the cops honest which often causes a good deal of friction. It least on TV and in the movies.

I've always been confused about that because I don't see how those RED people can arrest princesses lol. I always figured that other princesses capture princesses. I can understand Anak sr.'s case because she hadn't been fighting for a long time and had probably even given up fighting entirely, but in cases like Enne Zahard, they had other princesses come and even Zahard came out. If the RED group is so strong, then they should have well known high rankers among them.

Edited by fistsofrage, 26 April 2012 - 04:53 PM.

I suspect something was lost in translation. My guess is he means the relationship is similar to regular police and internal affairs. They are technically all cops but Internal Affairs' job is to keep the cops honest which often causes a good deal of friction. It least on TV and in the movies.

Well, so far from my discussions with my pals:

1) It's likely there's an issue of authority, given the Princesses defend the King's authority on a wide variety of issues(undefined for now) while the RED probably have limited authority(the only people they are allowed to target are people formerly from the Zahard Family aka the Princesses who broke the King's laws). Possibly, it's an issue of bitch-fighting over who has wider jurisdiction.

2) And if taking "point 1 into account", when the RED goes after the Princesses, it's of course... they're going to retaliate with vengeance and anger and of course, slowly enjoy watching "Her"(the Princess) suffer. Think of a lot more clones of Ren + Dexter.

And no, it's not a translation issue. The RED is there to keep watch on the Princesses. Most of the members only joined to satisfy their urges for murder or need to battle. The division serves King Zahard but isn't loyal to him. It's to be expected there will be conflict between the 2 groups: RED and Princesses.


We're still discussing and no, it's a private convo. =P

You make it sound like it's a classified convo

You make it sound like it's a classified convo

Why? Well it isn't but... I'm choosing to keep the url secret... =D

I've always been confused about that because I don't see how those RED people can arrest princesses lol. I always figured that other princesses capture princesses. I can understand Anak sr.'s case because she hadn't been fighting for a long time and had probably even given up fighting entirely, but in cases like Enne Zahard, they had other princesses come and even Zahard came out. If the RED group is so strong, then they should have well known high rankers among them.

Because they're part of Zahard Family, which means they serve the King directly and carry out all his commands. And they don't "arrest", they "execute" 'cos Evan Edrok told Yu Han Sung there was "an assassin of the Zahard Family" within the testing arena.

I think some of the RED members and possibly a heck lot of other people did go after Eurasia Enne Zahard but after the slaughterfest, they either captured her or Zahard interfered(rumour for now). Well, I'm not gonna speculate about their selection process for filling their membership ranks which were likely weakened due to her actions(provided Zahard ordered them to go after her).

I hope Phantaminum killed a lot of RED people when he stormed Zahard's castle lol. If not then it was a huge waste.

I hope Phantaminum killed a lot of RED people when he stormed Zahard's castle lol. If not then it was a huge waste.

It was in the Inner Palace, I think... and most of them might not have been there. It really depends on where their HQ is and where the members were.

Well, RED... *sighs* I think we're gonna be seeing a lot more versions of Ren coming out.

Imo RED is like the team rocket of ToG lol. They're never going to actually succeed in killing Baam/Viole or Anak so they're just there to make things exciting/interesting.

Edited by fistsofrage, 26 April 2012 - 05:28 PM.

Imo RED is like the team rocket of ToG lol. They're never going to actually succeed in killing Baam/Viole or Anak so they're just there to make things exciting/interesting.

No comments, I'll just like to see how effective they are before jumping to conclusions.

Anyways, will post back later... with new info(if I get any).

Edited by Yu Han Sung, 26 April 2012 - 05:32 PM.

I'm sure RED will put Baam & co in actual danger and whatnot, but I think just having a high ranker show up would more than do the job (or even sending a princess). A real threat that RED could pose would probably be in a formidable information network (if they have spies and the like). Also, the fact that Ren knows what Baam looks like is also a good point since he might be the one to expose him.

Edited by fistsofrage, 26 April 2012 - 05:38 PM.

@fistofrage: Nope, it's not the RED alone but almost all the people who talked with Baam or observed him(Hide and Seek test) on Floor 2. There's no guarantee everyone from Team 1 will be on Viole's side should they ever meet or clash.

And they're not so effective if it's 1 on 1 battle but... if it's 5 to 8 Rankers + High Rankers facing just Viole @ 25F alone... he's gonna be screwed. But that's also why SIU made all these rules to restrict the movements of all those Rankers: the Tower's Rules. And also why SIU is likely going to impose those same rules upon Viole.

K well, I'll like to get back to the actual topic at hand and please, everyone: the info will be going onto the wiki(about 2 pages). So if people want to offer info, please, no false info or random guessing.

Will be added to these pages:

http://towerofgod.wikia.com/wiki/Royal_Enforcement_Division
http://towerofgod.wikia.com/wiki/Zahard_Empire (yeah I know it's a bit messy atm. and it's not updated with the latest bits of "info" from Luslec's profile. But give me a while 'cos it took a lot of time to write up the whole freaking thing. =P)

Edited by Yu Han Sung, 26 April 2012 - 06:03 PM.

I'm sure RED will put Baam & co in actual danger and whatnot, but I think just having a high ranker show up would more than do the job (or even sending a princess). A real threat that RED could pose would probably be in a formidable information network (if they have spies and the like). Also, the fact that Ren knows what Baam looks like is also a good point since he might be the one to expose him.

RED sounds kind of like the KGB. They work for the head of the government but operate in the shadows to removed threats and traitors.

RED sounds kind of like the KGB. They work for the head of the government but operate in the shadows to removed threats and traitors.

Nope, they are an official division, dude. They don't work in the shadows at all.

Likely, the entire Tower knows about their existence and their purpose.

Anyways, could people please stop diverting this thread? I created it to address the question in name, not to start off a discussion about the purposes of RED and the like.

Thanks!

Edited by Yu Han Sung, 26 April 2012 - 06:09 PM.

It reads like RED members are formally endowed with a kind of military authority, while the Princesses and the 10 Families are more akin to a class of civilians (it's not a perfect analogy, though, because the Princesses are a military force in their own right, but it's close). The two groups have innately different (and potentially conflicting) goals - the RED is concerned specifically with suppression of any military threat and keeping things in order through violent means, while the "civilians" are more interested in diplomatic matters.

That's my take.

Edited by Father Deus, 26 April 2012 - 10:07 PM.

I wouldn't stray too much from SIU's analogy of Military police and officials. In South Korea military police are a paramilitary organization under the army, they also serve as border guards. Officials are defined as persons that were appointed to their positions due to merit and qualification, they exercise the authority placed upon them, and serve a higher authority.

In this case, Zahard is that high authority. Both are positions of potential power, the difference is that officials are public figures. While military police are uniforms, often depicted without a face. I assume the point in SIU's analogy is that although both represent and serve a higher authority, they may clash heads and one may inhibit the actions of the other. They're not mutually exclusive. The actions of an official may place limits on the actions of the military police in a given situation. while the actions of the military police may force the official into a compromising situation that is publically inconvenient.

That naturally indicates a potential oil and water relationship. If the official is a military official, then it may even be the job of the military police to investigate any potential criminal activity. I assume that is in part what SIU is referring to. That if a princess strays, RED is tasked with the investigation, judgement, and execution of such an incident. However, another military official may take charge of that investigation. A potential rival of the strayed offical, perhaps. Or in this case, princess. I assume that is why some of the princesses were involved with apprehending other princesses that strayed.

The analogy does work overall. The princesses are a kind of "face" to Zahard who is resting and not making an appearance. While RED carries out policing the tower to ensure his authority.

I won't bother going into corruption. But that's also a matter of relevence to their relationships.

And no, it's not a translation issue. The RED is there to keep watch on the Princesses. Most of the members only joined to satisfy their urges for murder or need to battle. The division serves King Zahard but isn't loyal to him. It's to be expected there will be conflict between the 2 groups: RED and Princesses.


We're still discussing and no, it's a private convo. =P

Well fine! lol! What I mean by translation issue is kind of what Noodlepirate said. That "official" and maybe even "military police" have different connotations in S Korea than the US and those relationships explain something. Here, it just doesn't "tranlate" to anything meaningful. Which is why I gave the police spin -- it's something I understand.

Miitary Police here are obviously part of the military but their jobs are to police their fellow soldiers. It's SIU's use of "official" that trips me up a bit. Military official? I'm wondering if he meant a military officer.

Maybe SIU sees Zahard's family as the upper levels of a military organization. There are likley plenty of soldiers that probably don't rate being called "family". Maybe the guards we saw in Season 2 first chapter with Yuri and the Koon Princess would be examples. But the Princesses are Royalty and therefore Officers. And the Royal Enforcement Division plays the role of military police. Maybe they deal with enforcing problems with the lower ranks as well (I don't think we know yet) but at least we know they are there to enforce Zahard's laws onto Royals (the Princesses). The Princesses/Officers technically have more power and authority but the MPs/RED have authority over them should they somehow step out of Zahards bounds.


Question: Where are you getting that RED isn't loyal to Zahard? I'd have imagined he wouldn't give them authority if they weren't?

Well fine! lol! What I mean by translation issue is kind of what Noodlepirate said. That "official" and maybe even "military police" have different connotations in S Korea than the US and those relationships explain something. Here, it just doesn't "tranlate" to anything meaningful. Which is why I gave the police spin -- it's something I understand.

Miitary Police here are obviously part of the military but their jobs are to police their fellow soldiers. It's SIU's use of "official" that trips me up a bit. Military official? I'm wondering if he meant a military officer.

Maybe SIU sees Zahard's family as the upper levels of a military organization. There are likley plenty of soldiers that probably don't rate being called "family". Maybe the guards we saw in Season 2 first chapter with Yuri and the Koon Princess would be examples. But the Princesses are Royalty and therefore Officers. And the Royal Enforcement Division plays the role of military police. Maybe they deal with enforcing problems with the lower ranks as well (I don't think we know yet) but at least we know they are there to enforce Zahard's laws onto Royals (the Princesses). The Princesses/Officers technically have more power and authority but the MPs/RED have authority over them should they somehow step out of Zahards bounds.


Question: Where are you getting that RED isn't loyal to Zahard? I'd have imagined he wouldn't give them authority if they weren't?

I'll answer this one, RED members may not actually be loyal to Zahard, they could simply have joined and are policing for him in order to make accomplishing their own ambitions easier. It's quite possible Viole is doing a similar thing with FUG but we wont go into that.