Banning large watermark groups

Please ban any scan group whose on-page-watermark is either:

- more than 25% of the page width OR
- more than 6% of the page's height OR
- have more than one watermark

from hosting their releases on Batoto.

Credit page is up to the scanlator.

Edited by lel191919, 16 March 2012 - 08:43 AM.

... ... What do you think this is? Some kind of personal request forum? How and why they implement a watermark ought to be up to the groups.


Note by grumpy: It's here because http://www.batoto.net/forums/topic/4871-emergency-announcement-google-adsense/page__view__findpost__p__114791

Administrative first.
I've splitted out your post from the announcement as that's what the suggestion forum is for.
Since you find yourself the need to anonymize your email, I've taken the liberty of disabling your email notifications (you can do so yourself in settings as well).

Onto the suggestion.
You haven't actually mentioned the reasoning behind your suggestion. So, I can only make assumptions.
I will assume that you believe such actions will stop watermarks.
Let us then split it into two cases.

Case 1: Watermarks don't go away.
Would you then take your statement back or stick with it? It doesn't seem to bring any benefit other than to punish ourselves only for imposing such rules. So, obviously this is not the answer. The end just sucks.
I see this happening with groups who's been largely vocal against other readers prior to our existence or our increase in fame. The fact that methods of watermarking has evolved is something that can never truly go back. So, for them, at least, nothing would change. We'd simply stop hosting while other sites do.

Case 2: Watermarks do go away.
This however has dire consequences. Batoto was created because the scanlators were loosing too much power relative to the amount of work that they do in the world of scanlation. This yielded in abuses and was quite frankly demotivating for many scanlators. Though, I don't enjoy naming people, let's take Prozess as an example. He had quit scanlation as he was tired of all the abuse. Looking beyond the right to argue about it, ability to argue about or even who's right and who wrong, the end shows a loss for the scanlation community simply because there is less total workforce put in, meaning less scanlation. Prozess came back because he saw the opportunity to fight back. Should we work against him to limit his strengths, he'd simply go away again. While some might rejoice that watermark has disappeared, you have less scanlation that's actually done. So opposed to now of it being your freedom to not read watermarked scanlations, you will simply be unable to read them anymore. In this case, I do not see how anybody benefits either.
You could argue that someone else will take a specific comic, but the total empirical count of work force is undeniably less.

Conversely, I can't perceive any reasoning or purpose for people to start scanlation just because watermarks are gone, while there is a purpose to start scanlation because there are watermarks, a motive to create clean version.

I won't deny that Batoto was essential to the changing scanlation world to one with watermarks. Some of it was what we wished, though most of it was a butterfly effect of things we couldn't even imagine. But times are changing, I don't think a single policy change will turn back time to undo its effects -- which is likely what you are seeking.


Onto the specifics of the suggestion.
I don't think such strict forms of watermarking is actually what you're wanting. For example, watermarks on the trim of the pages. These are never complained about as they're off to the side and I'm going to assume you don't mind them either. But it goes against your height 6%. I can't imagine anyone holding a ruler to see if it's 5% or 6%. Removing the nitpick and going to a general idea of a small watermark, it's too easy to remove it then. The increasing watermark was a response to attempts to remove them. By making it very easy to remove watermarks, you might as well suggest for any watermarks causing a ban.


We also have to consider alternative forms then. With watermarks gone banned, and the group chooses to put a credit page between every single page. That still passes the rule, yet that will probably annoy the readers even more. To those who feel the need to watermark will attempt to find ways to comply and to deliver their message. Would regulation truly even be the solution? Just as laws do not solve societal problems, I don't think us enforcing rules will even solve the issue. This was one of the reason Batoto had chosen to be a content neutral medium. To simply provide a fair and open ground. I currently don't see how censoring certain actions will come to a resolution.


Personally speaking, I do not like large watermarks. I do not like animated pngs for watermarks either. Both as a reader and as a operator of this website. As a reader, it annoys me. As an operator, it costs me more to deliver these gigantic things. On top of that, every so often I get an angry email saying I'm an asshole for putting watermarks when I never even encouraged such action, although we have given a page insert. But, I don't really have a solution where base problem, the source of watermark, can be solved. I think that's a goal the community must attempt to find. Perhaps we should seek ways to deliver the message without annoying the readers, or something much more creative.

Sorry for the long text wall.

Also, as this topic is quite heavy in likelihood to go in the incinerator, I'd like to add a small note. Please try to keep this thread civil. Constructive criticism is welcome. Insults are not. If you don't know how to make constructive criticism without being insulting, please don't post. If you're wondering how, think back to when your teacher told you to write a constructive criticism on a piece. Moderation will happen just like anywhere else in the forum. Offending posts may be removed or edited as deemed necessary.

Edited by Grumpy, 16 March 2012 - 08:24 PM.

I haven't seen any big watermarks which killed the reading if you want to show us some go ahead, but if you want to find some really big ones check A-teams TBNW releases of some weeks ago before SakiCow/MrX intervened.

so you want to ban those releases with "large" watermarks, isn´t that selfish? just because you don´t like seeing "large" watermarks, you are suggesting to ban it for everyone who reads on batoto.

i don't really care about those watermarks. it's a persons own choice to read manga on an online manga reader rather than heeding the scanlators wishes and read/dl on their site
it's my own and other people's lazyness that causes watermarks on some of the manga i read
it shouldn't be all that difficult to go to the scanlator's site if you're a fan

i personally think that the scanlators should be considered god unless you can buy and read the original yourself, since they have the power to stop translating your favorites. complaining about watermarks seems to me like complaining about the free candy not being first-rate belgian chocolate. anyone who hasn't made a any effort at all in getting access to the manga shouldn't really complain

and by "effort" i mean learning the language and earning the money to buy the original


edited on hero's request, since i don't feel like contradicting myself

Edited by Takayuki, 16 March 2012 - 11:59 AM.

Hmm, he probably ment the GIF depending on internet speed it will not go away or rather slow. With a full page print?

other then that i don't know. never seen any big watermark over 25 procent.

i personally think that the scanlators should be considered god

could I have this one a little bigger^^

I believe that the only large watermark I've ever encountered from reading manga online, were from raw providers that don't work with a group. They purchase manga on their own accord, be it from magazines or in bulks, and then scan and host it on their own website or to raw providing websites, and then they mark it so that the scanlating groups that try to claim it as their own (totally refusing to give cred to x hoster) can't do that.
If any, I've come across one group (and their quality was low anyways) that has watermarks covering the whole page in color, but they no longer work for release.

what grumpy said.

I would just like to add on that by banning groups with watermarks, that kind of goes against batoto's policy of respecting scanlators.
and to do a mini add-on to grumpy's post, I believe PROzess is the translator for like more than 20 ongoing series in the scanlation world.

We also have to consider alternative forms then. With watermarks gone banned, and the group chooses to put a credit page between every single page. That still passes the rule, yet that will probably annoy the readers even more.

Not gonna lie, I think I would much prefer that. However, at the same time, it wouldn't have the same effect, because MF could go and just remove every other page.

i personally think that the scanlators should be considered god unless you can buy and read the original yourself, since they have the power to stop translating your favorites. complaining about watermarks seems to me like complaining about the free candy not being first-rate belgian chocolate. anyone who hasn't made a any effort at all in getting access to the manga shouldn't really complain

I'd say it's more like complaining that the free chocolates you got had coconut in them.

-God Ginrai

I'd say it's more like complaining that the free chocolates you got had coconut in them.

well, i like coconut... but i'd understand if it was chili or something
at least it's not peanut, so it's not like anybody will die just because of those watermarks
and it's still for free, don't read if you don't like it

it's not as if i'm for watermarks, though. i just don't see the point in complaining about it rather than heeding the scanlators' wishes so that they wouldn't be put there

well, i like coconut... but i'd understand if it was chili or something
at least it's not peanut, so it's not like anybody will die just because of those watermarks
and it's still for free, don't read if you don't like it

it's not as if i'm for watermarks, though. i just don't see the point in complaining about it rather than heeding the scanlators' wishes so that they wouldn't be put there

Yea, I hate watermarks as well, but I understand why they are doing it, and also I understand that this problem will probably never go away as long as MF is around.

-God Ginrai

As a reader i'm not for watermarks either cause it kills the fun of reading. However, who am i to complain when i'm just benefiting from someone else's hardwork... I'm grateful instead that i'm still able to read my favorites... since i don't have the skills nor don't know the language of the original works.

I've seen some watermarks but the biggest so far that i saw was on Sunken Rock latest chapter. It covers the whole page but then they've released a cleaner version after. So, i think its just us being impatient. i understand the feeling of being the first one to read and give the spoiler to your friends... if that would be the argument, then just visit the scanlator's website... it's what i do...

Only group that does this is A-Team.

A few times they covered it with nude photos too.

I for one absolutely dislike watermarks. It truely is up to the scanlators, but some groups do take thier watermarks over the top, such as the watermarking I periodically see telling me to F*&S myself for using another site to veiw thier scanlations, when I am reading it using thier reader. Some of the editors at Japanzai are notorious for it.

Rather than hurting each other, the reader in this case
Swearing wouldn't solve a thing. please do that at 4chan
Migrating to here means you need to obey rules in here

I prefer a negotiation
asking politely to reduce the size of watermark and specify a good reason.

example:
because large watermark will hurt the readers, Trying to win "the war" is okay. but please don't involved those who do not wish to join "the war" effort. please respect their decision as we respect scanlator group. Thank you

the more people asking, the better
asking. not demanding or raging

Edited by manga2x, 16 March 2012 - 07:38 PM.

asking. not demanding or raging

this would be a good idea, in addition to heeding the scanlator's wishes
watermarks came after some individuals decided to not respect the scanlators' wishes
and raging won't make them go away, only respectful talk and actions will

maybe just have a icon next to the chapter if it's watermarked...

maybe just have a icon next to the chapter if it's watermarked...

good idea...like capital "W"... removable when watermarks has been removed or resized to acceptable limit...


agree with manga2x... one who demand should ask politely...

Edited by annihilator, 16 March 2012 - 07:37 PM.