Shingeki no Kyojin: Shounen/Seinen?

This discussion is originated from comments in front page. I make this thread so the comment page doesn't look so cluttered.

Shingeki no Kyojin is a shounen manga because it's running in Bessatsu Shounen Magazine, a shounen magazine. (source: Shingeki no Kyojin)

Shounen/shoujo/seinen/josei/kodomo are demographic classification used in Japan. And shounen is aimed at age 14-18. It's different from E/PG/R rating that American (or western in general) standard. Rate it PG or anything, but it is a shounen manga. Take a look at this thread that discuss the same thing: MPD Psycho is shounen, not seinen. MPD Psycho is seinen now because it's serialized in a seinen magazine now.

So, unless Shingeki no Kyojin change its serialization to seinen magazine, it is still a shounen manga.

Hi Pepe,


well oki
In my understanding, shounen refers first to kids and young teens : 8-14 years bracket, rather than the older one.
That's one reason why shounen battle manga very rarely show gruesome deaths, prefering instead to focus on the pain, determination and challenges heroes have to go through to succeed.

In Shingeki no Kyojin, you may consider that there are violent deaths every 2 chapters on average.
That's not shounen style. Period.
Whichever magazine publish it.
The psychological dilemnas (should I say torturing ?) and the mature themes (no sex yet, though) are also clearly of seinen style.

My caricatural example with a porn movie distributed by Disney Corp, is precisely to emphasis that point : that this manga should be judged on its own merits and the target audience, rather than by the general market description of its publishing company.

I'm not going to argue Bessatsu Shounen Magazine marketing decision to publish Shingeki no Kyojin or not. Actually, I'm glad a magazine did it, since it's a very good manga.
Except that if hosting sites just label manga as per which magazine they are published in, rather as per the contents and the likely population of their readership (and I don't think Japanese ppl are a majority in Batoto.com users), then I believe that's a disservice done to the readers, both by the scanlator gtroup and the host site administrators.


Would you label Gantz or Btoom as shounen if they were published by WSJ ?


Best regards,

Yes, if they're serialized in WSJ, then they're shounen.

In my understanding, shounen refers first to kids and young teens : 8-14 years bracket, rather than the older one.

No, Shounen is aimed at a male audience between the ages of 13 and 18 (But these number aren't strict). If there is a manga aimed at children of less age then it's not shounen but kodomo.

I think most people here have some kind misunderstanding about this seinen/shounen thing. Let me quote explanation from mangaupdates:

There are TWO types of genres:
-Demographic genres (Kodomo, shounen, shoujo, Seinen, Josei, etc.) and descriptive genres (Action, Adventure, Comedy, Mecha, etc.). The first one only indicates at which group the manga is aimed at, NOT its content, DON"T confuse them. In fact, you can say that "demographic genres" aren't genres in all the extension of the word, but demographic profiles.

So, they are established by Japanese publishers, so then, if they decide a manga is shounen (by publish it in a shounen magazine), then it is a shounen. Seinen/shounen don't describe the content of the manga. Manga is made by, and targeted towards Japanese audience. Shounen is aimed at male age 13-18 years old. Now, I've never been to Japan, so I don't really know their social situation but I think Japanese audience at that age is already well familiar with most of the mature stuff that we'd consider for over 21 audiences in America. So maybe for most of us, it's shocking to see 'this kind of mature stuff' in shounen manga. But for Japanese, it's maybe so common, who knows?

Except that if hosting sites just label manga as per which magazine they are published in,...

Well, because this manga is from Japanese, we include their standars too. Afterall, "Shounen" and "seinen" labels only show us at which audience the manga is aimed at. That's why, there's mature/adult tag added by us (non-Japanese readers) to describe the content. And I think I read somwhere in forum, that grumpy plans to add E/PG/R/ rating thing (mod can confirm this). So maybe in the future we can easily filter mature content.

I consider Shingeki no Kyojin is mature shounen, aimed at older teenager (17-18+, maybe?). As long as there is mature tag, this manga can be shounen or seinen, IMO.

Pepe,


don't you have the age brackets slightly wrong ?

kodomo is not really 8-14 ... it's clearly for children/toddlers, just as they start to read. with pictures and short/stand-alone stories.
well, older kids can still be interested in, but you don't expect a 12-14 years old to wait impatiently for the Barney show or the Tubbies, right ? that's quite the same thing here.

I agree that there are no definitive answers as to what constitues the age goups.
Unlike what you said, for wiki entry, shounen is more around 10 years old, than 16 years old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dnen_manga

And since the tags are meant both to inform readers and to warn them, I do believe it makes more sense to put a description that's more representative than doctrinal.
I mean what other reason is there for putting mature/ecchi/romance/school ... if not to "classify" the manga, and help inform the reader of what they should expect into it ?

in that light, does "shounen" really inform/warn a typical Batoto.com readers (assumed to be mostly US/European/Latin) of what they should find when reading this manga ?
Honestly, I don't think so.


Anyway, my insistence is not so much whether it should be re-classified, but what drove the logic to it being labelled "shonen".
And here I'll have to disagree with you : I don't believe that the distinction shonen/seinen or shoujo/josei is just about genre, but it's also a rating.
Since rating is always subjective to the targeted audience, and that the japanese audience doesn't have to be with the same cultural taboos as a western one, I strongly believe the tags should reflect that (ie : "what would a western audience consider this manga ?")

Most readers would equate that shounen = light-hearted, while seinen = more serious, irrespective of age bracket marketing or cultural differences
Similarly, a good translation is not one that is litteral, but one that convey the same message in a different language.
I'm sure you'd agree on this.


Best regards,

correction : wiki states 10 years and up ... not around 10

Okay, I got the age group from mangaupdates, hence the difference. Yes, the age group is not definite, it's subjective. But the point is, Publication IS the only factor that determines whether a manga is shounen or seinen. It is that objective. Use "mature", "adult" or whatever label you like to mark the demographic, but shounen/seinen only concerns about the publication.

Anyway, my insistence is not so much whether it should be re-classified, but what drove the logic to it being labelled "shonen".

For this, I know nothing because it's decided by Japanese publishers. The publisher chooses how to market a series; the themes and content are ultimately irrelevant.

And here I'll have to disagree with you : I don't believe that the distinction shonen/seinen or shoujo/josei is just about genre, but it's also a rating.

I apologize because I use genre in my previous post, while shounen/seinen are not really genre. They are demographic profiles. So, in Japan, I think they also act like rating (as we have PG/R, etc thing). And they are only determined by the publication.

I mean what other reason is there for putting mature/ecchi/romance/school ... if not to "classify" the manga, and help inform the reader of what they should expect into it ?

True, they are here to inform readers about the content of the manga. They have different purpose from seinen/shounen thing. In my previous post, I said they (ecchi, tragedy, psychological, mature, etc) are descriptive genre, that describe the content of the manga. I think it's because most sites group seinen/shounen into those descriptive genre too, hence the confusion.

in that light, does "shounen" really inform/warn a typical Batoto.com readers (assumed to be mostly US/European/Latin) of what they should find when reading this manga ?
Honestly, I don't think so.

In this case, I agree with you. They are labels that made by Japanese publisher, aimed to Japanese audience, so the answer is may be not. If you want information about the content of the manga, don't look at shounen/seinen thing, look at descriptive genre (harem, ecchi, tragedy, etc) instead. Also, we already have mature tag that inform the manga may contains adult stuff. I think it's enough for now. However, if there is a need, a rating that standardized by Western standard (maybe like MPAA rating system) may be applied in the future.

Most readers would equate that shounen = light-hearted, while seinen = more serious, irrespective of age bracket marketing or cultural differences

True, a casual manga readers may have that perception. But the accurate thing is: shounen/seinen is determined by publication. It's something that should be spread to western audience, so they don't have this misunderstanding. I admit I used to think shounen=one piece, naruto, rave, etc; while seinen is something with like deathnote and I"S. But that is not the case. Deathnote is in fact shounen because it's serialized in WSJ. I"S, despite having all the adult stuff (boobs and explicit panty shots everywhere) is shounen too. There are some manga that I once considered shounen (because I think it's kinda light-hearted) but in fact, seinen. Example: Shirley, ShibaO, Rozen Maiden. They are all seinen. So IMO it's not always "shounen=light-hearted; seinen=more serious".
Now, I don't look at seinen/shounen anymore. As long as the (descriptive) genre suits my taste, I'll read the manga. Usually I get enough information about the manga through the descriptive genre and the summary.

wow this is a good discussion i learned a lot

same

From my experiences shounen manga are generally aimed at around 12-16, or thereabouts.

As a 21-year old that reads all types of manga I can guarantee that it's not an exclusive tag

The amount of death or a depressing mood in a manga doesn't necessarily change the target demographic, there are plenty of shounen manga centered around violence and psychological issues. They're generally just less deep or, frankly, more poorly done than their seinen counterparts.

Honestly it's difficult to determine whether a manga is truly shounen or seinen at times.

Though it was noted that it's serialized in a shounen magazine, which certainly says something

But to continue the point, I've read a manga about a guy in college that's pretty much without a doubt a shounen manga. The events and issues in the manga are just too immature for it to be taken seriously the way a seinen manga would be.

Sometimes the difference is simply the quality of the work.

I think this issue is as simple as this:
Shonen is generally aimed toward 12 to 18 years old readers. As for Seinen it is aimed to around 16+ Readers.
Thus, it is obvious that there is a certain "intersection" between both genders, from 16 to 18.

I think this issue is as simple as this:
Shonen is generally aimed toward 12 to 18 years old readers. As for Seinen it is aimed to around 16+ Readers.
Thus, it is obvious that there is a certain "intersection" between both genders, from 16 to 18.

That rings true, an overlapping portion would explain the gray area (and thus this conversation).

Edited by bushwhacker2k, 20 April 2012 - 11:07 AM.

Well, thanks guys for this discussion. I also learnt something new today! I admit that I (unknowingly) used to relate these terms to the content of the manga. Nevertheless, it appears to me that for the great majority of what I've read, the content of a seinen/shounen manga is in general rather mature/light. But as we can see, there are always exceptions!
And when such exceptions are as good as this manga, it would be a shame to miss it for those seinen-only readers out there!

To tell the truth, I don't really see anything Seinen-like and/or mature things in Kyojin. It's your average shonen serial; being placed in a shonen magazine already comes with limitations to what the author can portray; it needs to be fit for, the very least, the 13 year olds. If it really has a Seinen outlook even from first impressions, it would very likely be placed inside 1day or Young Magazine in the first place, the editors in charge could do that much a forethought. To this point, even if you say exceptional, it's already unarguable even within Kodansha's department; they wouldn't dare to make a fuss and move it as it will cause risks in Bessatsu's circulation.

Also, the demographic "Shonen" isn't that bleak. A counter example would be the pairings between Weekly Shonen Jump and Monthly Shonen Jump (Recently replaced by Jump SQ). Though they're both Shonen, the Monthly has less restrictions.

Edited by wintercry, 23 July 2012 - 05:31 AM.

No but, like K-On!, no guy wanna read it but it's still in a seinen manga.
K-On is about light music club? Motha Fuqking FALSE!
All they do is vacation, buying guitar, and MOTHA FUQKING TEA!
MOTHA FUCKING TEA!

NOTHING BUT MOTHA FUCKING TEA!

No but, like K-On!, no guy wanna read it but it's still in a seinen manga.
K-On is about light music club? Motha Fuqking FALSE!
All they do is vacation, buying guitar, and MOTHA FUQKING TEA!
MOTHA FUCKING TEA!

NOTHING BUT MOTHA FUCKING TEA!

You're not making sense.

Edited by wintercry, 23 July 2012 - 05:30 AM.

To tell the truth, I don't really see anything Seinen-like and/or mature things in Kyojin. It's your average shonen serial; being placed in a shonen magazine already comes with limitations to what the author can portray; it needs to be fit for, the very least, the 13 year olds. If it really has a Seinen outlook even from first impressions, it would very likely be placed inside 1day or Young Magazine in the first place, the editors in charge could do that much a forethought. To this point, even if you say exceptional, it's already unarguable even within Kodansha's department; they wouldn't dare to make a fuss and move it as it will cause risks in Bessatsu's circulation.

Also, the demographic "Shonen" isn't that bleak. A counter example would be the pairings between Weekly Shonen Jump and Monthly Shonen Jump (Recently replaced by Jump SQ). Though they're both Shonen, the Monthly has less restrictions.

Not sure if serious........first of all, this is shounen, for it´s published in a shounen magazine. But the shounen magazine it is published in isn´t your average "friendship is magic". Other series there includes Evil Flower (rape just happened) and Kamisama no Iutoori (is survival game, the true defination of survival game). After that´s outta the way...........

To respond to your post: This manga ooze of matureness and can very well be the picture beside the word s"einen manga" in the dictionary. Horror is shoved down your throat. Don´t tell me you need to see very detailed gore for it to be horror and adult.

Edited by FakeHero, 11 August 2012 - 05:28 PM.

To respond to your post: This manga ooze of matureness and can very well be the picture beside the word s"einen manga" in the dictionary. Horror is shoved down your throat. Don´t tell me you need to see very detailed gore for it to be horror and adult.

Those horror, gore, and whatnot you said are merely slightly above the regular violence. If you consider this amount as 'Adult' already, then even child-friendly series like, say... Bleach can "ooze of matureness and can very well be the picture beside the word 'seinen manga' in the dictionary", quote from yours. That being said, that is why even with their slightly above average violence, Bleach and Shingeki are still far behind to being called a Seinen manga.

Edited by wintercry, 12 August 2012 - 12:38 AM.

Unbelievable, you misunderstood me entirely. It can be cause of how I worded it, or you just playing ignorant.

You must understand this. Bleach (no idea in why you would even mention it) is more or less the epitome of shounen. It´s first of all serialized in Shounen Jump (the biggest shounen magazine). The theme are as follow, friendship, friendship, bad guys are bad guys and deserve beating and friendship. The overall thing you get outta reading it (if you do get anything outta it) is, "cool boys do cool things" and "badass......I feel good".

Let´s get another thing straight where did I mention that I (!) thought that gore=mature? No offense, but I had thought that was what you had in mind. Since you seem to view it as another average shounen manga. Which in my eyes makes you look very narrow minded.

You don´t seem to comprehend this line "Horror is shoved down your throat" (maybe you thought I meant it in a negative way, which I don´t). Name me your 10 of your average shounen manga that deals with the fear of the unknown to that extent that´s one of the main focus. Don´t be confused now that it´s all about the theme. It´s actually (for me at least) how it´s executed. Both the subtle emotions and the ones that makes your heart race.

But, be my guest if you´re looking for the next Gantz (which sucks for the moment), it´s not here. What I wanted to have said is just, don´t look down on it just cause it´s published in a shounen magazine. It may as well be published in a seinen and you wouldn´t complain.

Edited by FakeHero, 12 August 2012 - 10:28 PM.

You must understand this. Bleach (no idea in why you would even mention it) is more or less the epitome of shounen. It´s first of all serialized in Shounen Jump (the biggest shounen magazine). The theme are as follow, friendship, friendship, bad guys are bad guys and deserve beating and friendship. The overall thing you get outta reading it (if you do get anything outta it) is, "cool boys do cool things" and "badass......I feel good".

Bleach was mentioned as an example. You said Shingeki can ooze some maturity or what not horror, same goes for Bleach it has seinen vibes developing upon the coming of the final arc. If you can't relate to Bleach, let me use another example altogether:
Hunter x Hunter looks like a child friendly manga but it is a perfect example of Shingeki's level of maturity. Shounen but overboard and sometimes mistaken for seinen; that's the point I'm trying to make that you clearly misunderstood. In other words, the atmosphere around Bleach/HxH and Shingeki is similar.

It´s first of all serialized in Shounen Jump (the biggest shounen magazine).

Perfect example of an opinion of an ignorant fanboy. Shonen Jump is the 'biggest' shounen magazine? Please, it's only the most popular and most circulated. It isn't base on who's big a magazine, but rather they rank the publisher it belonged to. Shueisha is only the number two publisher by overall aspects. And it's Kodansha who is the 'biggest' publisher there is.

No offense, but I had thought that was what you had in mind. Since you seem to view it as another average shounen manga. Which in my eyes makes you look very narrow minded.

Did I specifically said that was what I had in mind? The other way around can be said: You have a narrow perception not giving it much a forethought. Because you clearly don't know to what extent a seinen manga can get, especially if it's from Kodansha. It's not always those adults themes, and you clearly ignore the psychological development in seinen. Shingeki is something easy to understand, I can even sum it up to be a 'survival' manga with just having a matter of time before complete annihilation. Simple to summarize, hence easy to figure the manga out.

Name me your 10 of your average shounen manga that deals with the fear of the unknown to that extent that´s one of the main focus. Don´t be confused now that it´s all about the theme. It´s actually (for me at least) how it´s executed. Both the subtle emotions and the ones that makes your heart race.

And what would this accomplish exactly? This is rather unrelated. But if you think it isn't, then include this question again in your next reply.

But, be my guest if you´re looking for the next Gantz (which sucks for the moment), it´s not here. What I wanted to have said is just, don´t look down on it just cause it´s published in a shounen magazine. It may as well be published in a seinen and you wouldn´t complain.

First, I don't look down on Shingeki, I just said it's more of an average shonen, if not, just slightly. Second, refer to the underlined bold statement, this is what I meant on how you are fixated on certain series. Clearly you're talking about Gantz being a stereotype example. Each seinen manga is different, why be so fixated on Gantz? Also, I'm not looking for a next Gantz. There are much more better seinen manga than that. Lastly, if Shingeki or any shonen-almost-seinen series were to be published in a seinen magazine then its content will change. How stupid, including that statement doesn't support anything at all. Rather, it's obvious. Don't say something so obvious, it makes you sound stupid.

Edited by wintercry, 13 August 2012 - 01:25 AM.

Ehm...tbh, thanks for making your post easy to read, breaking it down and all. Sorry, that I don´t give my post that much "attention"(?) .

And here goes:

The example with Bleach, I can grasp what you´re trying to say now. But it´s almost stretching it (HxH example was much worse but nvm). You saying that you feel similarities in the atmosphere between them, okay.

Your second paragraph (or what you would call it). Damn, learn to read. I´m talking about dogs and you go on about cats. I did not mention publisher, so why talk like I did?. I said magazine, "It´s first of all serialized in Shounen Jump (the biggest shounen magazine)". Putting words in my mouth that I´ve never said, it´s not acceptable. But maybe you somehow got confused when I didn´t say mention the whole name. Weekly shounen jump is the biggest shounen magazine. Why would you interpret it instead as something with publishers and fanboys? Are you perhaps not aware of the meaning biggest? Okay, switch it out with most popular then. Sorry for not being 100% accurate with my wordings. Still you´re on thin ice in this discussion until you explain this.

About the third paragraph:

Well, I don´t know you (never met you). So I just made a assumption from your post on what kinda person you´re. That´s all there´s to it. And I bet you did the same to me. But it´s in no way you will convince me your thinking is right. Why´s "easy" to understand a thing that would not make a manga seinen? Seinen titles don´t have to be a convoluted clusterfudge to be seinen. And shounen with easy to understand psychology can as well be seinen tagged without anyone seeing the difference. And don´t be childish now with the whole, "Sum-up-with-few-words-so-it-is-shallow". Your attitude could apply to anything. Example:

Vinland Saga: Angry boy wants revenge, turns into harvest moon halfway through. Set in the age of the vikings where princes have daddy issues.

Monster: Doctor framed, trying to prove his innocence, a little boy´s way of thanking his saviour = ruin his life

Berserk: Guy loves another guy, the other guy loves a chick, the guy get´s mind broken and decide torape the girl, big swords, demons, revenge and etc.

Just trying to show you how your logic is flawed. And yes, it´s silly. I love all of the 3 above mentioned manga. And yes, they´re deeper than that.


Response to your forth paragraph: I tell you what it will accomplish, it will let me understand you better (dono if you want that). And that will in the best scenario lead to mutual respect between us. Nothing is pointless. But really, it´s indeed demanding, and I´m cool if you won´t do it.

Last paragraph, why I just throw certain series out there ain´t cause I´m fixated on them. It´s cause as said before, I do not know you, I don´t know what you´ve read. The mentioned manga, is well known manga. So even if you´re not that knowledgeable (maybe you just started reading) in manga/manwha you would know what I´m talking about without having to search them out and do some research. "Clearly you're talking about Gantz being a stereotype example", and no, again. Talking about them cause they´re popular, makes it easier to discuss. And it seems it´s my bad, " It may as well be published in a seinen and you wouldn´t complain.".
What I wanted to say was, you couldn´t tell the difference. Which ultimately lead to my point. You don´t value it cause it´s shounen.

I know you´re telling me that the series would change drastically if this was published in a seinen magazine. But you´re wrong. Originally the author/mangaka went to Weekly Shounen Jump hoping to get it serialized there. Rejection and changes was the word. Now I´m not sure which one weighted more, maybe it was rejection since the author/mangaka wouldn´t adapt/change, but the author/mangaka went somewhere else. It´s in Bessatsu Shounen Magazine that Shingeki no Kyojin can be what the mangaka wanted it to be. The manga you see is the manga that the author wants to do. I don´t believe that if he went to a seinen magazine, things would be different (give me facts that says otherwise).

It´s deep down super simple. Shingeki no Kyojin is a great shounen manga, it´s so great that people feel like it could as well run in a seinen manga (which you disagree, hence why we argue/discuss).

That´s all

..... I will continue this later, gotto rush the train.

Edited by FakeHero, 13 August 2012 - 08:01 PM.